How's your Odyssey going? Have you ever called your life and Odyssey? How about a liminal Odyssey? If you're wondering what a liminal Odyssey is? I have the perfect guest on today to share all about it from her recent released book, the liminal Odyssey, the alchemical power of the spaces in between.
Her name is Sande Hart and she is an award-winning leader in the fields of women’s empowerment and interfaith community building. She founded the women’s interfaith international grassroots organization S.A.R.A.H. (The Spiritual And Religious Alliance for Hope) the morning of 911, an instinct to gather women of diverse faiths to protect all that they consider sacred, now in its 20th year. She founded and served as director of Charter for Compassion’s Women and Girls sector, served as chair for the United Religions Initiative for North America and serves on the Women’s Task Force for The Parliament of World’s Religions. She is also the founder of Compassionate California. Sande is currently being inducted into the Women’s Oral History Library of Claremont Colleges.
Insights to add to your spiritual toolbox from this episode:
1. Calling your life an odyssey
2. What is liminal?
3. Uncharted new territories
4. DNA rearranged after 911
5. Interfaith activist and SARAH
6. Power the feminine holds
7. Remembering who we are
8. Bodies following our heart
10. Message from the 13 Indigenous Grandmothers
Sande's Website, Facebook, TheLiminalOdysseyFacebookGroup, SARAH4hopeFacebookgroup, HartPeaceLoveTwitter, Twitter, LinkedIn
Hi! I’m Teresa. I am a highly trained, certified Spiritual Educator and Consultant who helps people in their personal and spiritual development. My husband Tom and I started TNT SpiritWorks a few years back to do just that- help people along their spiritual journey. We love working with clients – helping them to tap into their inner guidance system on a daily basis, create a healthy balance between thought and feeling – and discover a stronger connection between their inner and outer communication system. Unlock ways to make the spiritual part of life practical. Connect with us at TNT SpiritWorks today!
Connect with us!
you ever called your life and Odyssey? How about a liminal Odyssey? If you're wondering what a liminal Odyssey is? I have the perfect guest on today to share all about it from her recent released book, the liminal Odyssey, the alchemical power of the spaces in between. Her name is Sande Hart. She's an award winning leader in the field of women's empowerment and interfaith community building. She founded the women's interfaith international grassroots organization Sarah, the spiritual and religious alliances for hope, the morning of 911 an instinct to gather women of diverse faces face to protect all that they considered sacred. Now it's in his 20th year, she founded and served as Director of charter for compassions women and girls sector, served as chair for the United Religions Initiative for North America and serves on the women's task force for the Parliament of world religions. She's also the founder of compassionate California. Sande is currently being inducted into the women's oral history library of Claremont Colleges. Welcome Sande. Thank you for having me, Teresa. I'm delighted to be here. Well, let's talk about liminal and Odyssey. What is a liminal Odyssey? You know, limitless first of all, let's just say what everyone's thinking. It's a clunky new word. And a lot of people don't know what the word means. liminal literally means threshold. It means the place between here and there the place between crisis and action, the limit and choice or and it's scalable, it can mean a evolutionary growth spurt that we are in right now as a human race is the is society. And, you know, architects actually use that word rather liberally when they're describing a staircase or a public space like a park where people move through it. So it's not really the space. The word liminal really doesn't just mean the space it means what we do in the space. What is what comes out of that space through shared experience or individual experience. And the Odyssey part of the title is really how how we live in that space, and really making it a journey. But you know, journey wasn't a big enough word for me when I was thinking about it. Because journey is sort of already a preconceived notion of where we're going right? Even though we say we may not know where we're going, but we know we're on our way and honestly, is really accepting the fact that we're going into uncharted territory, the great wide galaxy of the unknown, because we it's time we recreate a new understanding of where a word is that we're actually going and new society. It's time. So it's interesting. So as I want to go first off to about your, the organization, you created a 911 Sara, so that, to me, feels like it was a part of the liminal Odyssey and you probably didn't have that word yet. Did you? Oh, heavens. No, I only learned the word liminal a couple of years ago, even not even that long ago, and certainly didn't even stop to question what was going on inside of me. Except that I knew I had to gather women. I knew that and I didn't have enough a lot of women around me. I didn't have a lot of girlfriends. I was the Director of Sales and Marketing for major homebuilder. I was busy with my kids middle school life so I was a great soccer mom or basketball mom. But you know what happens when you are just raising your family and keeping everything together with my husband? But when 911 happened that morning, I my entire DNA rearranged and I heard gather women. I said yes. Then I said Where am I supposed to find the women and who, who's who's giving you these marching orders in the first place? It's also the time where I became intimately involved with my spirit guide or my calling, what have you just the other? That wasn't really present because I was in charge of my life, right? I was in charge of the family unit. I was taking charge and I was in my head and I no longer had that option. Handily let my heart lead and I listened to it and it said gather women and that's what I did. Wow, such a powerful time because that was definitely like all the other times in in history that something majorly happened that was like, huge for all of us living in this timeframe right now. But also at that point bringing in women that were of faith so to me, there's people out there that you know are atheist and that's cool and believer and you know, Jewish and Catholic and everything right. But how important is it to have a faith or belief in in a lifetime for support? So what do you believe in that? You know, how important that is for people? Well as an interfaith activist, because, first the reason why we became an interfaith group, I was intentional that we were of diverse faith traditions, and that also includes those who don't identify with the faith or consider themselves non believers or also the pagan and in which community of course, earth based traditions, very important to what we do is that there's a higher honor deeper value system and and but the but the catalyst for me was the fact that these were Muslim terrorists that were attacking our country and I didn't know any Muslim women and I didn't know any Muslim people not by design, but being Jewish. I couldn't imagine what these women must be dealing with right now. And right now meaning the moment the news hit, and they've got to get their kids ready for school. What are they doing with their kids today? So what was going through my mind and again, not knowing any Muslim women I started there. And although Spirit led me into some interfaith dialogues and those dialogues are where I found diverse women of different traditions, we came together we called ourselves Sara, the mother of all nations, which, generally speaking is the Abrahamic faiths but really, we took it to mean Mother Of All Nations mother of our community, mothering energy, maiden mother, crone energy, you know, whatever Mother means to you. We are here on the scene. And we and we've had enough. So we're here to show up. We come together in dialogue to learn about one another. We take that out. into the community, so we breathe in and out. Beautiful, and that support is so needed and so that was obviously over 20 years ago. And now where we're at in you know, the liminal Odyssey, but really gathering that support that each person needs from their community from their family from whatever it looks like, that's so important. I think that's a real key of what's been missing in our, you know, like going back to what tribals when the, you know, the great Indigenous Grandmothers and having that support is so important. And it's a way of life you know, when you get down to the ancient ways, it's really a way of life that has been, we've been it's been stripped from us by patriarchy is charms by this call to have more need more, have a certain order of how things are done. Globally, where women were once revered and honored for what their body was capable of doing. I mean, it's no small feat that we could give birth and, and then we flow in sync with the moon cycles. I mean, there's some real evidence there that women you know, deserve a little reference or a lot of reverence and they were given that reverence, until we learned about the power of commoditizing our planet commoditizing Earth, taking from the earth, turning it into something that is valuable, like money, and then that whole currency shifted literally, the currency from the natural order of things to a hierarchical domination system that helped guide us, you know, the microprocessor, we wouldn't be able to communicate right now and you wouldn't be able to listen to this right now. If you know that system didn't happen, or we couldn't go the moon or explore the outer limits of the of our solar system. But but yet we've lost the the balance is so far off and there's the indication of, of the crisis. And you know, that's piling on all around the world. And to your original question about the importance of religion or tradition, I'm going to stretch that to traditions or cultures or anchoring ourselves in the divinity of who we are and who our tribe is, you know, whether it's a global tribe of oneness of humanity, and all sentient beings, or your village, wherever you are, we need one another and we need to find those common roots that are based in secular ethics as well as the spiritual realms. That's, that's my answer to your question a few minutes later. I eventually get to it. Well, you know, it's interesting, because I agree with you so much Sandy like technology. I mean, you know, and I look back at history and go, Oh, my God, we're so blessed at where we're at. I mean, I'm to the point where it's so funny, I walked to Costco, this is really weird. But when I'm in Costco, I'm like, Look, I feel such gratitude. Like look at the abundance, the abundance and of course there's so much abundance, which is a lot but you know, and not just that, but like you said, I was talking like this and there's so much wonderful aspects to where we're at right now in humanity. But I totally agree, we're off kilter, like where most people are lost with who they are as a soul, how to connect with their, you know, their guidance and etc, etc. So and it's that and finding their own wisdom. So I think that is where your book is beautiful, because it really brings in a lot of different aspects about being here in the liminal Odyssey and exploring what we're here to do. Yeah, thank you, and I appreciate you saying that. It's really as simple and elegant is re remembering who we are. And there's some simple there's some simple practices that are really cool and really powerful. If I may share. Yeah, please do one of them. You know, body awareness is such a great way of really, you're doubled down and you're doubling down on a couple of practices here. When you're practicing body awareness. You're practicing awareness, which is the first thing what's going on around us what's in what liminal spaces are presenting themselves to us all day long. That body awareness is really just simply paying attention to what's going on in your body, giving it up. I'm gonna use this word again. I use it a lot reverence for what's happening in your body. How often are we disconnected? Like right now? I didn't even realize it but I got a little ache in my lower back. So I'm going to shift a bit here. And this came to me when I was at a conference and the the we were now being led into a meditation. And the the Joe Levy, who was leading the workshop actually said, Okay, now get comfortable. In your seat. And if you weren't comfortably comfortable before, ask yourself why. Like, okay, ah, yeah, by the way, hey, I'm not very comfortable and I'm in control of how I shift my body here. So body awareness is more powerful than we know. Also what signs are happening to us. Teresa, have you ever had a moment where you're wondering and you're expressing something and you're wondering if it's the you know, if that's really the answer or not, you get full body? Yeah, definitely. There's a sign there's a body responding more, more. More neurons come from our heart to our head. And the other way around. Our bodies is really following our heart is there's some power there. And the every cell has a nucleus of intelligence in it. It's a big system. And we are really missing out on some great information if we're not paying attention. So here's the simple practice five times a day for about 25 seconds, stop and pay attention to your body. Just commit set a timer or how about this every time you go into the restroom and because we typically do that five times a day. Stop and take the moment and just go okay, what's happening right now in my body, pay attention to it, give it reverence, bow to it, thank it, and move on. And do that for you won't even need to get through a month's time. That practice doing that every single day. Make it a discipline. If you need sticky notes, sticky notes you put on your calendar, however you remind yourself and and you'll start becoming more hyper aware of not just your body but then watch synchronicity started start to multiply. That's the funnest part of already like I saw three synchronicities today. Well keep doing it, you'll see 10 And it'll add up. That's how spirit talks to us and they add up and they multiply and then they turn into this magnificent Indras. Net, right where they just start you start weaving these patterns together and oh, it's almost a it's a lot. It's powerful. It's miracle miraculous. I totally agree with the sandy but it begins with the each person taking care and understanding what where they come from, how am I feeling? Not about how Sande Sande you're feeling your way? How's Teresa feeling today? And then Sande is taking care of Sande in this particular I think that's a lot of of what people have been working with. So for so long is taking care of people outside of them. That is time to really come home. And that's what this whole last couple years has been about is you know, who am I and what am I what am I here to really express and do and all of that coming into, you know, really the forefront. Do you agree with that? Oh, I think the greatest gift I can give you is to do this for myself is to be my be in my integrity, integrity, not the moral sense of the like jeje word integrity, doing the right thing which of course we all want to do that that being in our wholeness, the integrity of our body system, the integrity of this incredible design stuff. Think about the design of our body. Holy smokes. I mean, it's really magnificent. And we just take it for granted or not all of us of course, but I know I did. Yeah, and I know I think most people or I should say a large percentage do until something happens until they have a cancer or they have got a you know an ailment or that's when Okay, sometimes that's when the knock comes on. It's like okay, you need to really now start time to pay attention to what's going on in your body and ways to shift things. Absolutely. That's so true. And you know, one of the things that I discovered in writing the liminal Odyssey and starting to look at all of these skills and making them practices and then they started working together collectively like building blocks upon the other the importance is not waiting until a crisis to practice them is that's typically when I used to go to my bookshelf and pull off a book. What do I do I you know, I'm not feeling very mindful. Or oh, no, I'm in a relationship crisis. So I'll pull off my Brene Brown book or some kind of inspiration. Practice these things before you need them. Just like honoring your body, perhaps you know, you're going to avert a crisis in your cells in your body. We absorb a lot of energy and that messes with a lot of other systems that ultimately can get sick. I'm not a doctor that I I like to think that it all make sense that we should go Sande. Yeah, yeah. And it's just like everything else, like, you know, brushing our teeth, like if we don't brush our teeth, and floss our teeth, eventually you may lose your teeth. Okay, so that's just a little that's a little part. Right? But I mean, there. There's a bigger aspect to really being in tune with who you are as a soul and your energy and how to work with that and more and more people because I go to a lot of expos and fairs and meet a lot of people and more and more people of all walks in nature are awaken up to I need I need some assistance with this. Yeah. And though the waking up right now is happening on a grand scale, and quantum physicists are even saying we are we're moving into a second quantum revolution, the first being, you know, understanding that we live in a mental universe in which expanded the atom and of course all kinds of discoveries that we mentioned earlier come from that philosophy launched an awful lot of science and mindful science science on the mind. And now we're moving into another era where they're seeing that the spaces are even bigger than they originally thought things are speeding up the heartbeat of our planet, according to Heart Math, you know, this nonprofit research center, which is full of integrity in all kinds of ways. You know, I've noticed that the Earth is, you know, the heartbeat of the Earth is speeding up, but we're in nature as well. And I like to think of it as our minds are catching up to our spirituality, for race for awakening. And it's happening right now as we speak, and what's interesting too, is even like recently with the James Webb Telescope Have you have you seen some of those pictures? No. Okay. It's in my notes to do right you Sande. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I listened to this astrologer online and he was saying how this is the it goes all the telescope goes all the way back to the big big bang the beginning of creation, way further than Hubble and it when I looked at those pictures, I was blown away. I mean, it almost like changed like you said, you know when 911 Change your DNA, this like sent a wave of change in my DNA. So this astrologer I was listened to recently said something about this happening about how this is another expansion of consciousness. So like you're saying science HeartMath you know, our physical, the celestial I mean, everything right now is that this huge expansion I've chills I say, This is so exciting. Sande, are you not excited? I'm so excited. That's why we're here right Sande? Oh, we would not be here right now. Hello. I mean, really, that's the bottom line. I mean, we're here because this is damn exciting. This is exciting. It's such an incredible time to be alive. It is look at me and go How can you say that look like prices? Look at the environment like a day. You know, we're losing species. Look at that. Look. At the north country alone, the fragility of our government that we never imagined before, you know, and, and that at the same time, we're being counterbalanced by the futurists visionary scientists that are showing up people like us. You don't want a seed is planted underground. it disintegrates it has to disintegrate before it falls apart. I mean, before it can grow into what its true potential is and that True Potential can we can you know, birth 10,000 trees which can birth 10,000 More trees and forests and so on. So what is our potential that's breaking through right now and the fascinating time we're in is we could see the sea falling apart, but we can see the the small, bright green sprouts coming out of the surface of the soil out of the darkness. It's hard to imagine this evolutionary growth spurt. This sprout not continuing to grow bigger and faster. I think we can do it in our lifetime. I'm 61. I think we're, I think I think, just 10 years ago, where our society was and our culture was and how we've made great strides and improvements and how we see one another. Definitely. I mean, I can't even think back that far. Is that weird? I mean, I think that's how fast things are going from myself. It's like, even looking back at pictures, I'm like, Oh, my God, who was that? I can't it's hard, didn't relate to who I was, you know, a year ago, two years ago and then go back 10 years my gosh, Sandy, it's like, I barely recognize the soul in that physical body in the picture. And the plant will not recognize its seed. And the butterfly will not recognize its, you know, Caterpillar, or its larva. Its gooey, messy larva, whatever it is, you know, it's and we're all in any different particular stage personally, you know, so it's, again, it's very scalable vision to whole it really is but you know, the exciting part to me is that we don't have to do it alone. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, hello, there's a how many of us on the planet is there? 8 billion right now probably adding more and more there's other souls that know want to come in the planet so there's so much support for people these days and for the journey and you know, like you're walking you're, you're, you know, you're talking me walking my talk and others walking their talk and then expanding all that positive energy to others who may feel alone but they don't have to feel alone. No, as a matter of fact, we are all connected anyway. Have you ever walked into a room and felt the energy change or been in a room or somebody walked in the energy change? That's real. So we are really connected? I don't know much about auras studies. But I know there are studies that prove that when people come into your sphere you change. And yet culture is a collective agreement by all of all of us, right? So we all contribute, our behavior contributes your behavior contributes so when we all function in enlightened self interest on what I do for myself, I'm doing for you and vice versa, what we were talking about earlier. Collectively, were better if I alone, never leave this room. But I pray and I keep my thoughts impeccable. And I'm going to trust that at some level at some vibrational level, you're better because of it. Yeah, so we both really Yes. Yes. Well and interesting to like in the physical how I'm saying, you know, we're not all alone, because we have other support for people but also in the spiritual so I've noticed that of course at these expos and things more and more people are waking up but like last weekend, I was at an event and a lady came up and stood next to me was talking to me and all of a sudden her guide came next to her and I felt the guy nice and she's like, oh, boy, I've never had my guide come this, close it in, you know, in the midst of talking to someone like this. So the support we are receiving from the other realm is human. It's humongous. I had a conversation this morning with a group of women that I encircled with regularly. And we were talking about the President's yesterday was the Jewish New Year Shanna Tabata, any Jewish, listen to the New Year, the new year and we were talking about how, you know, yesterday and or they called Nidrei service that where we really strip ourselves in front of God, and you know, how, however you relate, it was very different than any other time. We all agreed to that. We were not all Jewish, but we're all agreeing that we're in that place. Right now. We're we're feeling really stripped, and it kind of feels really great. It feels really great to get naked in front of your truth. And to say, Okay, let's question assumptions. Let's complain let's look at behavior patterns that don't serve us let's get more aware and honest with our body and and relate intimate relationship with our body. What's going on? And watch how we can midwife. You know, this new place, we don't know where we're going. We know we're on our way and we know we're going there together. I don't want to poison the waterhole when I get there. I say I think I say that in the book too. Yeah, well, that's interesting, because I like that metaphor of thinking that we're all naked and we're all exposed and we're all into this, like, you know, what's next and how do i What's the next clothing I wear? How do I present myself and the way that I am now, which is totally different than I was yesterday, and every other minute, right? We're in constant change, but I'm going to keep that in mind for myself as I move through and see people and where they're at. Because if you and I and the where, where we're at energetically and spiritually on our paths, open, aware, expanding, etc, unfolding. The people that are in different levels of consciousness are where they're at. So having a gamma go reverence for these souls who are just waking up and just really coming into but they're feeling so exposed because they feel naked. So I love that you brought that in Sande and I'm filled with chills. I say that because that's a really big thing to think about as we move in the world right now. Yeah, I think about this a lot when I see somebody that I would otherwise judge whether it's somebody on the freeway cutting me off or someone behaving in a way that isn't the way I my highest vision of how I would do and think everybody's just doing the best they can. I really believe everybody is really doing the best they can and they've got different lessons to learn. You know, I share my posts the lessons to learn yet and that I have learned, you know, and I think that all I can do is really work on that and and honor everybody for that challenge in every area right now. You know, it's a very difficult time I'm I won't pretend anything than that's the truth, right? I think what, what this conversation earlier today that I mentioned was that we're all feeling this way even though you don't know what it is and you can't put your finger on it. Therein lies the truth that we all impacted one another. When the whole planet is concerned about their health care because of COVID or the rising waters or the tornadoes or the hurricanes and the fires or the drought that no one's immune from that. So of course we got to go easy on ourselves. We got to go easy on one another. This is where compassion and understanding what compassion means is really powerful. It's not a warm fuzzy word. Exactly a hard and frankly word when you're doing it right and identify the suffering of another and having the desire to alleviate some of that suffering. Even if you don't have have to actually touch them or give them anything it might be just thinking okay thoughts, good thoughts about them and wishing them well. Just that acknowledgement and that honestly may be all they also need energetically. Don't we all think Yeah, I agree. We all raise it we're all impacting the energy on the planet. So what I'm you know, when, when I'm upset about something not only is you know, what am I doing to my body and my soul right now by beating myself up about something or carrying that energy, which is a normal thing to do, but how long am I going to do it for? I have to also remember that impacts you and sometimes it's easier for me to consider you than it is for me, because that's about being a woman that's just the nature of what we do we care for others typically before we care for ourselves. That's something we you know, we're working on, right? Constantly. That whole gassy, but now remember that gas mask over your face and an airplane kind of care for ourselves first, and then we're better suited to show up. Without a doubt, I 100% agree with that. So let's talk a little bit about your beautiful book, the Liminal Odyssey and The Alchemical Power of The Spaces In Between so we tap you know, touched a bit about it now this book is rockin I read it and I was like, holy moly. It's got some amazing like you said some techniques, some insights, some beautiful passages, which I'm gonna have you read in a little bit because I want you to share with them with my listeners and my people on YouTube. Some beautiful passage that's in this book, but this is a powerhouse of the book, Sande. So how I'll just ask, I mean in the wide range of, you know, things you could have added How did you streamline into what you put into this book because my goodness, it's, it's chock full and it's a little book too. I mean, it's not like you know, but it's it's a big book. A big book and a little book, Sande. I'm just going to capture all of what you just said in a recording and let it play me to sleep every night. Thank you. Um, well, it wrote me is the first thing I have to say. I set out to tell a single story that I've been urged to tell by my friends for the last 15 or so years, about an experience I had in 1982 and no nukes rally and music festival. It was a pretty wild story. I thought it was just sort of a mundane and significant little story up until the day that I had to. I was forced to share a personal story in a group of people. We were going around and someone said, Okay, now share something interesting about ourselves that no one else knows. And I'm like, I don't have anything interesting. So I told that story. And then I'm like, wow, that was pretty cool. That was a pretty great story. I should tell it again and on the way home, my girlfriend's saying you got to write a book about that, about that story. You could fill up a book. And of course, I sat down a number of times and tried but I didn't have enough of a book to write. I couldn't even fill up a chapter, let alone a few pages. I told the story and that was it. I didn't like I didn't have anything else to grab on to to make it. I'm not really an author, I thought and so and maybe an author could do that sort of thing. And I even look for ghost writers I look for support and you know, wasn't supposed to happen. I'm glad for that. And then I heard this word liminal. Like, Oh, okay. I actually thought it was going to sit down and write a book about liminality because it really struck me and then I thought, Well, what was going on in 1982 in that liminal space between my call to action, and what happened? Next? And I started writing about that. And then before I knew it, the skill of Reverend listening showed up the power of listening. So I wrote about that. So each chapter is a story with an anchored lesson methodology. Maybe science, something that made sense for me and that story, and the rest of the story is poured out of me. Similar to P sundae in 1982, which was the name of the event. I thought these other things were, they were kind of cool, right? But I started writing about like, no these are more than cool. These are really notable, really important. And, and so I wrote about them. And then of course, intergenerational trauma work was necessary for me to understand what was going on in that particular story. So every story is followed by its methodology or practice and practice. Then I pulled back and I thought, Okay, wait, this is something of a journey let's look at because I'm, you know, I love Tom, Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and the patterns and maybe I should I should sort of set that this up as a template in the hero's journey. Second, it just didn't hit the mark. There was so much more there, you know, it twists in a turn and it was spiral and square at the same time, it was linear and it was, it was inside out it didn't it didn't follow any pattern that I had ever seen before. And there. There was another reason for the word Odyssey. And then I pulled the skill set separately. And I saw I put them on a sheet of paper and I'm like, well, these are all required from one another. They're all mutually beneficial, mutually necessary. They're all interrelated to and how, you know, to have to understand, you know, body awareness is to really have reverent listening. So what happens when you start pulling all these things together, and then what was happening? As I'm writing the book, I'm living these practices in real time. So I'm like, I'm starting to see changes in my life changes in my body, changes in my relationships, changes in how I respond to my husband and my kids. You know, those closest to write and that's a real blip this test. My patience is so much greater what a better driver I am. I mean, everything I started noticing these changes, like, holy smokes, it's a super skill. All of these skills put together as a super skill than I thought I don't want to preach the book. I'm not going to tell people what to do with all these skills. I don't like it when I like to be informed. I like to have information that helps me, but I'm really professing something really powerful. So I thought, How do I personalize this and make sure it's truly not just for me? So I pulled in some other modalities that I necessarily don't pull in like, Well, I do use yoga and other mindfulness and breathing techniques, but they're not my go to, for example, or some other pro social psychology things, whatever you whatever inspiration you pull up when you're trying to get through something I've tried to think of those things. It works. It's it's malleable, right? It's it can really be there's not any one kit for everyone. And and I discuss to me the philosophy of the liminal Odyssey, which I'm now calling liminal. coherence, which isn't mentioned in the book is it's all just been this has been a constant discovery process. Just an unfoldment right? That it will unfold me until my last breath. Exactly. That's what I always say. It's like my learning is until the last moment I'm here. Well, it is. It's an amazing book and I will share also that the cover is spectacular. So when I go to my Expos and Fairs I have a Enthusiastically Spiritual podcast table. So I always put out all the books and I put it like the episode and my YouTube and I have everything out there. And I just took your book recently and I laid it out because I don't have this episode obviously is not released till November. So and this is back in we're filming this in September. No October. Gosh, I can't remember what month it is Sande, but it's October, right? October, right. So I laid it out and someone picked it up. Or picked up like wow, I mean, so the cover the energy. They're like, what's this about us? It's she's coming to she's gonna be on my podcast soon, but not yet, but they were like so it's a powerful, powerful book. Love it. Thank you. I have to give kudos to Katherine Skaggs who is the artist of that piece. And she actually posted this piece of art that she was developing before it was complete, because that's sometimes what she will do. She'll share what spirit is driving her to do. And in here there was some of it, but not it wasn't complete. You can even see some pencil scratches. But this part of it was complete more or less, more at more than I Yeah, it was complete. And it looks so different when you zoom in to the face than it does for the rest of the image. It almost looks like two different beings two different images. But I said Katherine, I've never done this before. Have you ever licensed your art before for a book? And she says no. I said please, you've got a license mean this says everything. And when you look closer at the artwork, you can see the detail and some scenes in there some subtleties in the stroke marks that are even more so powerful, when you really get into it and hold this book up close to your face. And she wasn't really interested in me using her artwork, and I just held my breath till I drew blue. Please, please, please describe it for the listeners because you know if they're watching this on YouTube, I just held it up and showed what it looks like. But for anyone listening, would you like to describe what the front of the book looks like? It is something of a goddess mythical face where you're only seeing really the eyes and the part of the nose and the nose. And that's about it and some of the of the forehead. One eye is open when eye is closed. Right our inner work and our outer work the the there's an undescribable the you know, feeling I get when I sit so I'm not sure I know how to put that into words other than it's sublime. And again, like I said, if you look really float at first glance, you see what looks like perhaps a woman's face. He looked closer and you see the third eye that is so brilliant. And with the spark of light coming from that, that radiates out and then look closer into the light and it's up for your own personal interpretation of what you see in there. I see my ancestors. Oh, without a doubt. I just saw them. Yes, I see a circle of women. I see my children in the next seven generations or you know, so if you can really just hope you can just buy the book to hold it up to your face. We know what I see Sandy which is interesting is um, so half of it is blue and half of it is yellow orange. And so to me, it's like the moon and then the sun. Oh how beautiful. I just I mean that's what I see. It's just a spectacular book. Yeah, I just love it Sandy so much. Well, I never thought of it. It could be the solar and the lunar right, the darkness and the light. It's also the chakra, the crown chakra or the throat chakra integrity, integrity of our words. Right? And our the sacral identification, right? Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. So there's so much meaning just in the cover of the book. Forget reading the book is just a cover like oh my god. Fabulous Sande. Well, let's there's one way I want us in this So I first want to thank you from bottom my heart for coming on today and sharing this beautiful message your beautiful book. All the information how to get a hold of Sande will be in the show notes how you can get her book and and connect with her on Facebook, on Twitter, on all the LinkedIn everything but I would love for Sandy to end this episode with a beautiful reading from the Indigenous Grandmothers. Thank you so much and before I do allow me to express my deep boughs of gratitude for you, Teresa for this space for your hospitality and bringing me here for for the opportunity for my voice to be heard. In my spirit is smiling right now my angel. They're all high fiving each other and also for bringing this to the world. I'm just so grateful for you and your voice. Thank you, how you use how you walk through your life. This is a message from the 13 Indigenous Grandmothers. As you move through these changing times, Be easy on yourself and be easy on one another. You are at the beginning of something new you are learning a new way of being you will find that you are working less in the Yang modes than you used to. You will stop working so hard at getting from point A to point B the way you have in the past but instead was spend more time experiencing yourself in the hole and your place in it. Instead of traveling to a goal out there. You will voyage deeper into yourself. Your mother's grandmother knew how to do this. Your ancestors from long ago knew how to do this. They knew the power of the feminine principle and because you carry their DNA in your body, this wisdom in this way of being are within you. Call on it. Call it up. Invite your ancestors in as the Yang based habits of the decaying institutions on our planet begin to crumble look up a breeze a stirring. feel the sun on your wings. Thank you so much, Sande. Thank you Teresa.